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Post by jellybean on Nov 14, 2008 22:19:22 GMT
lol nah i'm arguing for arguments sake to be quite honest.
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Post by bigospedros on Nov 14, 2008 22:43:17 GMT
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tom713
Yesterday Went Too Soon
'she lights the fires...then she goes'
Posts: 685
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Post by tom713 on Nov 14, 2008 22:52:02 GMT
I'll argue some more But really, getting a general consensus that people arnt interested in going deeper with this topic and others like it which i find a little surprising but will stop my ranting in fear of portraying myself as a wacko. Probably too late...
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Post by jellybean on Nov 14, 2008 22:55:34 GMT
nah go for it. good healthy debate and all. it's nice to hear peoples views on subjects like this... there are too many forums where debates on topics such as this, and others are outlawed because of the friction they can cause.
to be honest they can only cause friction if people aren't grown up enough to realise everybody is entitled to their own opinion.
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Post by nancepants on Nov 14, 2008 23:38:37 GMT
i don't see what the problem in simplifying things like this is.
when i think of the average person around where i work, they wouldn't understand if you tried to explain in great detail to them why they were struggling to find a job, or why they were getting laid off. at least with the way tabloids explain it - yes they may be sensationalising it - but it at least means it makes a bit of sense to people.
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tom713
Yesterday Went Too Soon
'she lights the fires...then she goes'
Posts: 685
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Post by tom713 on Nov 15, 2008 11:20:54 GMT
i don't see what the problem in simplifying things like this is. when i think of the average person around where i work, they wouldn't understand if you tried to explain in great detail to them why they were struggling to find a job, or why they were getting laid off. at least with the way tabloids explain it - yes they may be sensationalising it - but it at least means it makes a bit of sense to people. That is exactly my point. People are happy to be in a safe and cosy mind frame and think they know whats going on 'cos the news told them about it. In reality, if they knew how money and all other kinds of issues in the world work in even just a bit of complexity they might sit up and take notice.
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Post by bigospedros on Nov 15, 2008 12:31:06 GMT
or, they might just turn off and not bother to find anything out.
Clearly what is needed here is balance ... TV news and most papers should simplify things for the masses. If anyone reads that and wants to know more, they can read the FT or watch / listen to specific money programs and TV and Radio.
So long as everyone gets the message that we're in for tough times and it's probably a good idea to make sure you're spending within your means, reduce your debts and try, at all costs, to keep yourself employed etc then that's what's needed.
Do you really expect your average Joe to care about the LIBOR rate and it's knock on effect on the availability of credit to the public and to other financial entities or the complexities of world investments and how debts are bought and sold and borrowed against and how that affects general liquidity of people, companies and governments worldwide?
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tom713
Yesterday Went Too Soon
'she lights the fires...then she goes'
Posts: 685
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Post by tom713 on Nov 15, 2008 13:41:34 GMT
To be honest, I couldnt tell you about all the ins and out of banking. The system is so complex its pretty much designed to be uncomprehensible. However, thats not really what im getting at. Im talking about the fundamentals behind money. A good example is what i read on the BBC Have Your Say section. With regard to the bail out money someone wrote something to the effect of, 'we need the Government to show us exactly where this money is coming from, you cant make money out of thin air' Well actually you can, its called fractional reserve banking and thats what the US, UK and most leading nations use for their monetary system. Check this link out below. It explains this system very well. Let me know what you think. video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2757717349905894095&ei=T9AeSZX1G6f22QKDuM39Bg&q
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Post by bigospedros on Nov 15, 2008 15:58:05 GMT
that was quite interesting, until it all got a little bit sensationalist and like the ranting of a crazy person by the ruins on the World Trade Centre towards the end. To be honest, I already realised that money can be created out of thin air ... I remember what the German Government did towards the end of and after the 2nd World War, they just kept printing money. Loads of it and all that did was devalue the currency. There is a famous quote / cartoon showing a german "peasant" pushing a wheelbarrow full of cash to the local shop to buy a loaf of bread. Whilst the system might seem illogical when you break it down like that, it will continue to work so long as people don't start to take the piss. I think that's what's happened in recent years ... greed has taken over and a lot of people, companies and governments have over-reached themselves. In reality, we could really do with wiping the slate clean, but I rather suspect there are far too many vested interests in that to do it. Money and the flow of it is always a cycle. We will have some boom years and then we'll have some bust ... it's survival of the fitest. If you manitained a level of sense then you'll survive. If you haven't, you'll go bust. Now that's not a great problem ... it at least gets rid of the dross of the world. I guess it's all perhaps complicated by the fact that the world is so interlocked these days. That's why this "credit crunch" or recession is so different to any others. No-one probably quite knows how it's all going to work out and yes, I suspect Governments are taking huge risks by creating money to bail companies out. I personally don't think they should do that ... going back to the survival of the fittest thing. But that's what they've done ... I guess they were caught between a rock and a hard place. Don't bail them out and everything will go tits up. Do bail them out and less things go tits up but more debt is created. I guess so long as all that debt is never actually called in, then we'll just continue as we are until everything just implodes ... I suspect you and I will be long gone before that happens though. Interesting link though ... thanks for sharing
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tom713
Yesterday Went Too Soon
'she lights the fires...then she goes'
Posts: 685
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Post by tom713 on Nov 15, 2008 16:53:45 GMT
While I admire your positive thinking, i've been having real trouble thinking in that way recently. If what this movie says is true (and until someone shows me an alternative system I have no reason to believe otherwise) then it paints a pretty messed up picture of the world. And yeah, it is what people would call sensationalist but if thats reality then people need to know about it whether its sensationalist or not. A few hundred years ago, if someone came up to you and told you the Earth was round they'd have probably been tagged sensationalist.
Ive said this before on here but i'll repeat it ''cos I think its a brilliant example. We have the resources today to ensure everyone on the planet has a good, basic quality of life. We could start it all tomorrow but we dont. And the reason is ''cos you cant make a profit. If that doesnt sound backwards then I dont know what does.
That clip is just part of a movie and you'd really need to see the whole thing to understand the big picture. If you're interested then some good movie documentaries are:
Freedom to Facism Zeitgeist (a warning, if you're religious you wont like this) Zeitgeist Addendum
Stick them in google video and take a look. If you think its rubbish thats fine but it cant hurt to take a look.
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Post by Not Karl on Nov 17, 2008 14:21:59 GMT
The credit crunch took my baby
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Post by jellybean on Nov 17, 2008 14:44:13 GMT
the credit crunch punched my mother in the stomach and ate the jews.
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Post by Ath on Nov 18, 2008 7:58:35 GMT
i give up ... do you seriously want to go into the absolute details of every single little problem which is affecting world economics right now ? Might make a change if we did. You ever notice how on radio 4 you'll get a fairly comprehensive breakdown of the news like the possibility of negative inflation they're on about today, which radio 4 attributes to serveral factors amongst others. The news on radio1 attributes the possibility of negative inflation to .... fuel prices.... The media are guilty of simplifying things far too much.
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Post by bigospedros on Nov 19, 2008 12:18:52 GMT
whilst I do understand your point there ... the two radio stations have different target audiences ... just the same as the papers and say the 6 o'clock news and Newsnight on TV.
Fuel Prices are indeed a factor in negative inflation ... but obviously not the only one.
Perhaps all we really need is the more summarising programs to actually say "if you want to understand this in more detail, tune into program x at this time" ??
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Post by Ath on Nov 19, 2008 13:17:51 GMT
Or get off our asses and find out for ourselves.
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Post by bigospedros on Nov 19, 2008 13:49:26 GMT
hah, well yes ... there is that option I can't see the masses doing that though ...
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